BRIAN MURARESKU:: It's a simple formula, Charlie. If beer was there that long ago, what kind of beer was it? So this whole water to wine thing was out there. BRIAN MURARESKU: I don't-- I don't claim too heavily. And all along, I invite you all to pose questions to Brian in the Q&A function. I'm skeptical, Dr. Stang. One attendee has asked, "How have religious leaders reacted so far to your book? That's just everlasting. BRIAN MURARESKU: Dr. Stang, an erudite introduction as ever. So I'm not convinced that-- I think you're absolutely right that what this establishes is that Christians in southern Italy could have-- could have had access to the kinds of things that have been recovered from that drug farm, let's call it. Certainly these early churchmen used whatever they could against the forms of Christian practice they disapproved of, especially those they categorized as Gnostic. That was the question for me. So somewhere between 1% and 49%. When you start testing, you find things. So Brian, welcome. And I just happened to fall into that at the age of 14 thanks to the Jesuits, and just never left it behind. He decides to get people even more drunk. So if we can test Eucharistic vessels, I wouldn't be surprised at all that we find one. I have a deep interest in mysticism, and I've had mystical experiences, which I don't think are very relevant. And the big question for me was what was that something else? The Gnostics did have continuity with paganism. He was wronged by individuals, allegedly. I want to thank you for your candor. The (Mistaken) Conspiracy Theory: In the Late Middle Ages, religious elites created a new, and mistaken, intellectual framework out of Christian heresy and theology concerning demons. Things like fasting and sleep deprivation and tattooing and scarification and, et cetera, et cetera. 55 This is very likely as it seems that the process had already started in the 4th century. All right, so now, let's follow up with Dionysus, but let's see here. Which turns out, it may be they were. Thank you for that. I know that's another loaded phrase. I see it as-- well, OK, I'd see it as within a minority. 101. There's also this hard evidence that comes out of an archaeological site outside of Pompeii, if I have it correct. And they found this site, along with others around the Mediterranean. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of "tikkun olam"repairing and . BRIAN MURARESKU: That's a good question. . Like in a retreat pilgrimage type center, or maybe within palliative care. And I'm trying to reconcile that. Now, I've had experiences outside the Eucharist that resonate with me. And nor did we think that a sanctuary would be one of the first things that we construct. You're not confident that the pope is suddenly going to issue an encyclical. So that's from Burkert, a very sober scholar and the dean of all scholarship on Greek religion. So we move now into ancient history, but solidly into the historical record, however uneven that historical record is. In the same place in and around Pompeii, this is where Christianity is really finding its roots. . I mean, this really goes to my deep skepticism. Now, I've never done them myself, but I have talked to many, many people who've had experience with psychedelics. And you find terracotta heads that could or could not be representative of Demeter and Persephone, the two goddesses to whom the mysteries of Eleusis were dedicated. Something else I include at the end of my book is that I don't think that whatever this was, this big if about a psychedelic Eucharist, I don't think this was a majority of the paleo-Christians. Many people see that as symbolic or allegorical or just a nice thing, which is not the case. First act is your evidence for psychedelics among the so-called pagan religions in the ancient Mediterranean and Near East. He draws on the theory of "pagan continuity," which holds that early Christianity adopted . He dared to ask this very question before the hypothesis that this Eleusinian sacrament was indeed a psychedelic, and am I right that it was Ruck's hypothesis that set you down this path all those many years ago at Brown? 18.3C: Continuity Theory. 1,672. All that will be announced through our mailing list. And what does this earliest history tell us about the earliest evidence for an ancient psychedelic religion? BRIAN MURARESKU: I wish I could answer that question. So those are all possibly different questions to ask and answer. They found a tiny chalice this big, dated to the second century BC. What's significant about these features for our piecing together the ancient religion with no name? Now that doesn't mean, as Brian was saying, that then suggests that that's the norm Eucharist. We don't have to look very hard to find that. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of " tikkun olam "repairing and improving Where are the drugs? So I see-- you're moving back and forth between these two. The universality of frontiers, however, made the hypothesis readily extendable to other parts of the globe. The fact that the Vatican sits in Rome today is not an accident, I think, is the shortest way to answer that. The Immortality Key, The Secret History of the Religion With No Name. But Egypt seems to not really be hugely relevant to the research. I really tried. And by the way, I'm not here trying to protect Christianity from the evidence of psychedelic use. Read more about The Immortality Key by Brian Muraresku Making Sense by Sam Harris I write it cognizant of the fact that the Eucharist doesn't work for many, many people. Brought to you by GiveWell.org charity research and effective giving and 5-Bullet Friday, my very own email newsletter.Welcome to The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is usually my job to deconstruct world-class performers to tease out their routines, habits, et cetera that you can apply to your own life. 25:15 Dionysus and the "pagan continuity hypothesis" 30:54 Gnosticism and Early Christianity . I'm sure he knows this well, by this point. What about all these early Christians themselves as essentially Jews? Richard Evans Schultes and the Search for Ayahuasca 17 days ago Plants of the Gods: S3E10. And she happened to find it on psilocybin. Although she's open to testing, there was nothing there. And what about the alleged democratization with which you credit the mysteries of Dionysus, or the role of women in that movement? I'm happy to be proven wrong. And the second act, the same, but for what you call paleo-Christianity, the evidence for your suspicion that the Eucharist was originally a psychedelic sacrament. Now, I think you answered that last part. That's one narrative that I feel is a little sensational. And her answer was that they'd all been cleaned or treated for conservation purposes. And when I read psychedelic literature or I read the literature on near-death experiences, I see experiences similar to what I experienced as a young boy. So this is interesting. The Continuity Hypothesis was put forward by John Bowlby (1953) as a critical effect of attachments in his development of Attachment Theory. For those who didn't have the time or the money or the temerity to travel all the way to Eleusis from Spain, here's your off-site campus, right? It's not to say that there isn't evidence from Alexandria or Antioch. And that the proof of concept idea is that we need to-- we, meaning historians of the ancient world, need to bring all the kinds of resources to bear on this to get better evidence and an interpretive frame for making sense of it. And so I can see psychedelics being some kind of extra sacramental ministry that potentially could ease people at the end of life. BRIAN MURARESKU: I'm bringing more illumination. Like the wedding at Cana, which my synopsis of that event is a drunkard getting a bunch of drunk people even more drunk. But by and large, no, we don't really know. Let's move to early Christian. Just from reading Dioscorides and reading all the different texts, the past 12 years have absolutely transformed the way I think about wine. So the Greek god of wine, intoxication. CHARLES STANG: OK. And that's a question equally for ancient historians and for contemporary seekers and/or good Catholics. Like, what is this all about? I know that that's a loaded phrase. I mean, the honest answer is not much. Psychedelics are a lens to investigate this stuff. I opened the speculation, Dr. Stang, that the Holy Grail itself could have been some kind of spiked concoction. And so I don't think that psychedelics are coming to replace the Sunday Eucharist. It seems to me, though, that the intensity and the potency of the psychedelic experience is of an order of magnitude different than what I may have experienced through the Eucharist. And inside that beer was all kinds of vegetable matter, like wheat, oats, and sedge and lily and flax and various legumes. 44:48 Psychedelics and ancient cave art . Others would argue that they are perfectly legal sacraments, at least in the Native American church with the use of peyote, or in the UDV or Santo Daime, I mean, ayahuasca does work in some syncretic Christian form, right? Get personalized recommendations, and learn where to watch across hundreds of streaming providers. And that's the mysteries of Dionysus. So if Eleusis is the Fight Club of the ancient world, right, the first rule is you don't talk about it. I think the only big question is what the exact relationship was from a place like that over to Eleusis. Tim Ferriss is a self-experimenter and bestselling author, best known for The 4-Hour Workweek, which has been translated into 40+ languages. And, as always the best way to keep abreast of this series and everything else we do here at the Center is to join our mailing list. Hard archaeobotanical, archaeochemical data, I haven't seen it. You want to field questions in both those categories? All he says is that these women and Marcus are adding drugs seven times in a row into whatever potion this is they're mixing up. So in my mind, it was the first real hard scientific data to support this hypothesis, which, as you alluded to at the beginning, only raises more questions. BRIAN MURARESKU: I would say I've definitely experienced the power of the Christ and the Holy Spirit. Is there a smoking gun? I'm going to come back to that idea of proof of concept. Books about pagan continuity hypothesis? I mean, so it was Greek. BRIAN MURARESKU: Great question. But I do want to push back a little bit on the elevation of this particular real estate in southern Italy. But if the original Eucharist were psychedelic, or even if there were significant numbers of early Christians using psychedelics like sacrament, I would expect the representatives of orthodox, institutional Christianity to rail against it. You might find it in a cemetery in Mexico. I want to thank you for putting up with me and my questions. I wish that an ancient pharmacy had been preserved by Mount Vesuvius somewhere near Alexandria or even in upper Egypt or in Antioch or parts of Turkey. When Irenaeus is talking about [SPEAKING GREEK], love potions, again, we have no idea what the hell he's talking about. We have some inscriptions. Frankly, if you ask the world's leading archaeobotanists and archaeochemists, where's the spiked beer and where's the spiked wine, which I've been doing since about 2007, 2008, the resounding answer you'll get back from everybody is a resounding no. So I'll speak in language that you and our good colleague Greg [? On Monday, February 22, we will be hosting a panel discussion taking up the question what is psychedelic chaplaincy. So I point to that evidence as illustrative of the possibility that the Christians could, in fact, have gotten their hands on an actual wine. And I think it's proof of concept-- just proof of concept-- for investing serious funding, and attention into the actual search for these kinds of potions. And so I don't know what a really authentic, a really historic-looking ritual that is equal parts sacred, but also, again, medically sound, scientifically rigorous, would look like. Rachel Peterson, who's well known to Brian and who's taken a lead in designing the series. And I think that we would behoove ourselves to incorporate, resuscitate, maybe, some of those techniques that seem to have been employed by the Greeks at Eleusis or by the Dionysians or some of these earliest Christians. There aren't any churches or basilicas, right, in the first three centuries, in this era we're calling paleo-Christianity. A lot of Christianity, as you rightly point out, I mean, it was an Eastern phenomenon, all over the eastern Mediterranean. and he said, Brian, don't you dare. I mean, I asked lots of big questions in the book, and I fully acknowledge that. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of "tikkun olam"repairing and . The kind of mysticism I've always been attracted to, like the rule of Saint Benedict and the Trappist monks and the Cistercian monks. Now you're a good sport, Brian. What was the wine in the early Eucharist? And if the latter, do you think there's a good chance that religions will adopt psychedelics back into their rituals?". I mean, so Walter Burkert was part of the reason that kept me going on. They're mixing potions. I fully expect we will find it. Part 1 Brian C. Muraresku: The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis and the Hallucinogenic Origins of Religion - Feb 22, 2023 BRIAN MURARESKU: I'm asked this question, I would say, in pretty much every interview I've done since late September. Perhaps more generally, you could just talk about other traditions around the Mediterranean, North African, or, let's even say Judaism. Because very briefly, I think Brian and others have made a very strong case that these things-- this was a biotechnology that was available in the ancient world. And I write, at the very end of the book, I hope that they'd be proud of this investigation. That's because Brian and I have become friends these past several months, and I'll have more to say about that in a moment. Not because it was brand new data. Not in every single case, obviously. Rather, Christian beliefs were gradually incorporated into the pagan customs that already existed there. And I wonder whether the former narrative serves the interests of the latter. Whether there's a psychedelic tradition-- I mean, there are some suggestive paintings. The Tim Ferriss Show. Nage ?] Up until that point I really had very little knowledge of psychedelics, personal or literary or otherwise. These are famous figures to those of us who study early Christianity. Now, I mentioned that Brian and I had become friends. Before I set forth the outline of this thesis, three topics must be discussed in order to establish a basic understanding of the religious terminology, Constantine's reign, and the contemporary sources. You may have already noticed one such question-- not too hard. Copyright 2023 President and Fellows of Harvard College. Now, Carl Ruck from Boston University, much closer to home, however, took that invitation and tried to pursue this hypothesis. There is evidence that has been either overlooked or perhaps intentionally suppressed. The altar had been sitting in a museum in Israel since the 1960s and just hadn't been tested. CHARLES STANG: You know, Valentinus was almost elected bishop of Rome. But we do know that the initiates made this pilgrimage from Athens to Eleusis, drunk the potion, the kykeon, had this very visionary event-- they all talk about seeing something-- and after which they become immortal. What about Jesus as a Jew? Did the potion at Eleusis change from generation to generation? That would require an entirely different kind of evidence. I mean, about 25 years ago, actually. Joe Campbell puts it best that what we're after is an experience of being alive. And I want to ask you about specifically the Eleusinian mysteries, centered around the goddesses Demeter and Persephone. That's, just absurd. Rupert Sheldrake, PhD, is a biologist and author best known for his hypothesis of morphic resonance. Now, that date is obviously very suggestive because that's precisely the time the Christians were establishing a beachhead in Rome. So it's hard for me to write this and talk about this without acknowledging the Jesuits who put me here. And even in the New Testament, you'll see wine spiked with myrrh, for example, that's served to Jesus at his crucifixion. And according to Wasson, Hofmann, and Ruck, that barley was really a code word. There was an absence of continuity in the direction of the colony as Newport made his frequent voyages to and . The book was published by Saint Martin's Press in September 2020 and has generated a whirlwind of attention. And there were probably other Eleusises like that to the east. But I mentioned that we've become friends because it is the prerogative of friends to ask hard questions. I also sense another narrative in your book, and one you've flagged for us, maybe about 10 minutes ago, when you said that the book is a proof of concept. And I, for one, look forward to a time when I can see him in person for a beer, ergotized beer or not, if he ever leaves Uruguay. Tim Ferriss is a self-experimenter and bestselling author, best known for The 4-Hour Workweek, which has been translated into 40+ languages. First, the continuity of the offices must be seen in light of the change of institutional charges; they had lost their religious connotations and had become secular. I would have been happy to find a spiked wine anywhere. So there's a whole slew of sites I want to test there. So the basic point being, as far as we can tell, beer and wine are routinely mixed with things that we don't do today. CHARLES STANG: I do, too. BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. We know from the literature hundreds of years beforehand that in Elis, for example, in the Western Peloponnese, on the same Epiphany-type timeline, January 5, January 6, the priests would walk into the temple of Dionysus, leave three basins of water, the next morning they're miraculously transformed into wine. And that's all I present it as, is wonderfully attractive and maybe even sexy circumstantial evidence for the potential use of a psychedelic sacrament amongst the earliest Christians. The pagan continuity hypothesis theorizes that when Christianity arrived in Greece around AD 49, it didn't suddenly replace the existing religion. difficult to arrive at any conclusive hypothesis. I see a huge need and a demand for young religious clergy to begin taking a look at this stuff. he goes out on a limb and says that black nightshade actually causes [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH], which is not unpleasant visions, i.e. But you will be consoled to know that someone else will be-- I will be there, but someone else will be leading that conversation. There's some suggestive language in the pyramid texts, in the Book of the Dead and things of this nature. So. I appreciate this. We call it ego dissolution, things of that nature. This two-part discussion between Muraresku and Dr. Plotkin examines the role psychedelics have played in the development of Western civilization. So how exactly is this evidence of something relevant to Christianity in Rome or southern Italy more widely? It's not the case in the second century. And I think what the pharmaceutical industry can do is help to distribute this medicine. I mean, I think the book makes it clear. We still have almost 700 with us. The continuity theory of normal aging states that older adults will usually maintain the same activities, behaviors, relationships as they did in their earlier years of life. So, you know, I specifically wanted to avoid heavily relying on the 52 books of the [INAUDIBLE] corpus or heavily relying too much on the Gospel of Mary Magdalene and the evidence that's come from Egypt. This 'pagan continuity hypothesis' with a psychedelic twist is now backed up by biochemistry and agrochemistry and tons of historical research, exposing our forgotten history. And I answer it differently every single time. So thank you, all who have hung with us. And I-- in my profession, we call this circumstantial, and I get it. And when I started to get closer into the historical period-- this is all prehistory. After the first few chapters the author bogs down flogging the Pagan Continuity Hypothesis and exulting over his discovery of small scraps of evidence he found in a decade of research. And I think it's very important to be very honest with the reader and the audience about what we know and what we don't. What does it mean to die before dying? BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. The idea of the truth shall set you free, right, [SPEAKING GREEK], in 8:32. And I think there are lots of reasons to believe that. There have been breakthroughs, too, which no doubt kept Brian going despite some skepticism from the academy, to say the least. So what evidence can you provide for that claim? So again, if there were an early psychedelic sacrament that was being suppressed, I'd expect that the suppressors would talk about it. But let me say at the outset that it is remarkably learned, full of great historical and philological detail. What's the wine? And even Burkert, I think, calls it the most famous of the mystery rituals. I'm happy to argue about that. But it's not an ingested psychedelic. Now, Mithras is another one of these mystery religions. Maybe there's some residual fear that's been built up in me. Klaus Schmidt, who was with the German Archaeological Institute, called this a sanctuary and called these T-shaped pillars representations of gods. He was greatly influenced by Sigmund Freud (1940) who viewed an infant's first relationship - usually with the mother - as "the prototype of all later love-relations". He has talked about the potential evidence for psychedelics in a Mithras liturgy. And I want to-- just like you have this hard evidence from Catalonia, then the question is how to interpret it.
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